Oil

[freewolf46]

I urge anyone who is interested in understanding the Middle East situation, to spend this hour and fifteen minutes watching this to the end. Very interesting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&q=energy+non+crisis&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[Drivesme]

I got 5 mins into it and couldn't stop laughing!

If a guy has to spend that much time telling you how much he knows and how much he isn't lying......he doesn't and he his.

[Old Round Guy]

Freewolf, I didn't listen to the entire video, yet. I also don't recall for sure, were you on the Idaho Statesman's old message board.

I seem to recall a similar discussion back then, and then it just sorta died out. North Shore was brought up and one of the islands in the Aleutian chain was brought up, specifically because the Russians either wanted to buy it or because they claimed the rights to the oil there.

I think I'm going to post that video on another message board, what I did watch was well worth watching.

[freewolf46]

I got 5 mins into it and couldn't stop laughing!

If a guy has to spend that much time telling you how much he knows and how much he isn't lying......he doesn't and he his.

That's fine. I myself look beyond a persons style and look through the whole book to search out possible truths and thoughts worth consideration. If it turns you off, That is fine. It's not for you then. I do sincerely hope that in light of that you will show integrity and respect to the point that you will further refrain from discussion on the matter allowing those who have read the book or watched the video to discuss the contents without having to search through unrelated posts that are unrelated by the fact that the poster has not, nor has the desire to, read the book or watch the movie to be discussed.

I would appreciate your consideration in this matter as a show of good faith for further possible discussion in other threads on other subjects of mutual concern or where we both have the same information to process before or during the discussion. My thanks in advance.

[freewolf46]

Freewolf, I didn't listen to the entire video, yet. I also don't recall for sure, were you on the Idaho Statesman's old message board.

I seem to recall a similar discussion back then, and then it just sorta died out. North Shore was brought up and one of the islands in the Aleutian chain was brought up, specifically because the Russians either wanted to buy it or because they claimed the rights to the oil there.

I think I'm going to post that video on another message board, what I did watch was well worth watching.

I don't think I was ever on that board. I may have been. Not sure. I was on the last Boise board that went sour, and I was on one before that but rarely if ever posted on the first one. I don't know of the discussion that you reference and I would sure remember because even though the video is long and at times boring or repetitive, it is laced with things that I have not heard others speak of. At least beyond whispers and short sound bites.

I also offer no endorsement. I found it interesting and thought provoking if looked at without prior bias or conviction.

[NuclearShadows]

Okay, I read the book. You can read it on line here (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Nino/Desktop/energy-non-crisis.html ) It isn’t really that long or hard of a read, but if you don’t want to read it, here is my synopsis:

Chapter 1-We meet Mr. X who knows all about the conspiracy of the federal government to control our lives and turn America into a socialist state.

Chapter 2- Please belive me! I am telling the truth! No lies or opinions, only the FACTS!!

Chapter 3- Mr. X and Senator Chance are good Christian gentlemen and would never lie!!

Chapter 4- The government hates free enterprise and the American people!! Brother Lindsey, Senator Chance and Mister X are astonished, angry, amazed with lots of gasping going on… No one will believe us! Not even Ronald Reagan! The stupid American people are all being duped and we are the only ones who know the TRUTH! The fed, New York Bankers, Arab Sheiks, unions and environmentalists!! They are the evil doers…

Chapter 5- Louisiana bull frogs come to life after being saved by Noah after the great flood thousands of years later… He wants to make a golf course….

Chapter 6- “Of one thing I am convinced. Somewhere, some place, there definitely appears to be a conspiracy.” The poor Canadians are already absorbed by the evil doers. Lots of good money housing and food to be had by all!!

Chapter 7- Unions rules make it expensive to take a shit..

Chapter 8- “Lions and tigers and bears, oh my” are making your gas expensive. Kill ‘em all. “The American people are being brainwashed!!

Chapter 9- Shit flows down hill and payday is on Friday..

Chapter 10- The fed is trying to bankrupt the oil industry and doesn’t play fair.

Chapter 11- The earth and government hates private enterprise.. Ice is cold…

Chapter 12- Federal inspectors are liars and don’t know anything about welding… They hate private enterprise.

Chapter 13- We have to lie cuzz the NY bankers and the Arabs are going to kill us and GOD!!

Chapter 14- God loves the oil companies and it is part of God’s plan. But Moslems need to turn to Jesus…

Chapter 15- Boat rides are nice. Oh boy! No oil crisis. 25 years of oil, but why does the government hate us??

Chapter 16- Don’t tell anyone what you know.. They will kill us! Let my people go, so the oil can flow. God save us from the evil feds.

Chapter 17- Fuck the environment, fuck the government and fuck you if you don’t believe me… Get that oil now or God will kill you.

Chapter 18- There is no sulfur in this oil, you could drink it instead of your morning coffee. Birds even like it. The federal government is a pack of liars. A scandal bigger than Watergate! If we tell the truth they will kill us!

Chapter 19- Your flow of 200 years of gas is being choked off by red tape. God doesn’t like it and neither should you! It is a conspiracy against gods plan and you…

Chapter 20- If you don’t do something Big Brother will take over and we will all become socialists!!
Soylent Green is People!!!!

http://www.culiblog.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/soylent%20green.thumbnail.jpg

[Bruce McAuley]

You have to wonder about ANY minister. You already know what's #1 in their lives...;)

Bruce

[NuclearShadows]

You have to wonder about ANY minister. You already know what's #1 in their lives...;)

Bruce

Basically what he says is that the oil is there and could last 200 years, God wants us to have it, the government is in a world wide conspiracy to control our lives and turn us into socialists and he can’t understand how we all can be so stupid…

[Notus Lotus]

Basically what he says is that the oil is there and could last 200 years, God wants us to have it, the government is in a world wide conspiracy to control our lives and turn us into socialists and he can’t understand how we all can be so stupid…

LOVED the synopsis!! :D

Could you do Glen Beck's screed next?

[lenny]

Okay, I have not watched this yet and will be away from the computer for the day so I don't know when/if I will be able to watch it. I did see the first 60 or so seconds and quickly clicked the red X in the top right corner of my screen when he said 200 years worth of oil in Alaska. That's downright nuts...sorry, and really I think it would be tragic if there actually were. Can you imagine what another 200 years of auto culture would do to the collective mental state of this countries citizens? Please no.

NS, your synopsis was hilarious, and it's my opinion that anytime religion gets interjected into a theory (or whatever this is) it only weakens the overall credibility.

Freewolf, I will try to find the time to watch this, but from the sound of it I don't think I'm going to find too much to agree with. I'll try to bring some relevant talking points to your thread when I find the time later.

Have a great day all.

[Drivesme]

Basically what he says is that the oil is there and could last 200 years, God wants us to have it, the government is in a world wide conspiracy to control our lives and turn us into socialists and he can’t understand how we all can be so stupid…

Don't forget, he isn't lying!:D

[freewolf46]

Well quite honestly, I have to say it seems like every persons interpretation of what they see and hear seems to based more in their personal beliefs than reality. The video makes no mention of God nor does it make any religious claims, nothing about socialism, nothing about left or right ideologies, unions, or much of anything else in NS's synopsis. It has everything to do with big money and corporatism and our empire building. These are the main points trying to be made by video. (by the way NS, your link to some book on line goes nowhere).

The claims made by the speaker are neither provable nor deniable with verifiable evidence. However some of the claims about the natural gas are provable as to the quantity and the lack of ability to use it. Some of the claims about the manipulation of oil prices, certainly find some support in the events of the past years. The main points or claims made by the video are as follows.

That we are in the business of empire building.

That it is financed through oil profits.

That big money is the manipulator of oil profits to pay for the empire.

That the oil producing counties and the oil companies are allowed to make a huge profit and get filthy rich as reward for submitting to the manipulators, and that the consumer pays the price for these profits as well as the cost of empire building.

That Iraq and Iran are the two major countries who will not co-operate and therefore must be dealt with through force.

That it was essential to make the Saudi's and others purchase our national debt to keep the American dollar afloat and that we did have the ability to coerce them and allow them to reap outrageous profits as reward.

That the national debts of third world countries forgiven by the world bank are paid for by the consumer.

That Iraq's and Iran's failure to help us prop up the dollar and participate made them our enemies and not some phony military threat.

That Iran is almost ready to flood the market with cheap oil and it is essential to the US dollar and economy to stop them at all costs.

That the first step in the payback was our promise to Saddam to turn a blind eye if he decided to take back Kuwait since it originally did belong to Iraq, thus giving us the first in into Iraq when we double crossed him.

That the real and only threat from Iraq and Iran was their intention of getting off the US dollar and danger they presented by not co-operating in keeping the price of oil artificially high.

There is more, but these are the main points being made. The presentation, style, background of the story teller, or other beliefs are irrelevant to these points. As to the points themselves, there is much in the way of history and present circumstances to support these points. Our invasion of Iraq under false pretenses, our strategic placement of troops and ships in the Persian Gulf, our obvious empire building, and more, all lend credence to these points.

In that respect, the story is very interesting. To those who want to get tied up in the personality or personal preferences of the story teller, it shows somewhat of a lack of objectivity. Oh well. Make of it what you will. I think it lends credibility to the theory that the we are in the business of empire building, the lack of a real military threat by our Middle Eastern enemies, the role our so called Middle Eastern friends play in the process, that this empire is being built off the backs of the consumer through the manipulation and control of the oil market, and that those who play along with this manipulation are rewarded and those who don't will pay a military price.

Not one of these points have been addressed by the responders in this thread and yet it seems to me that these, concepts at least, are the very concepts used by the anti-war crowd and opposers of our war on terror. Do they match perfectly your personal beliefs about the war? There is nothing and no one that does, even in a group of three let alone a country of 300 million, but there are certainly thoughts incorporated in the story that run parallel to the very arguments used by many here. That's interesting to me, not some guy's religious beliefs.

How many times have some here claimed we are empire building? Does your association with him through a shared belief in that respect make you as unreliable as you make him by his association with something else?

How many times have some of you claimed it's all about control of the oil? Does your association with him through that shared belief make you as loony as you make him since you claim his other attributes of beliefs may be different?

How many times has someone mentioned Iraq and Iran"s threat of hurting the US dollar as being more of a problem than WMD's? Bruce?

Quite honestly, as I watched the tape, I was surprised at how many things said lend support to claims of the anti-war crowd and anti-empire sentiments. He is saying the same things they have said with the main difference being variations as to why he reached those same conclusions. Similarities/differences. It's present where ever two people are present. I look for the similarities. I'm open to the differences and reject them or give them further consideration based on possibilities and/or probabilities, but I don't let them deny the similarities. Objectivity.

In summary, I will say that I found the video very interesting, and in the claims of empire building, phony reasons for the war and the next one to come with Iran, and manipulation of the oil market to finance both, I find some common ground. Neither you or I know or will ever know the true how's. That is speculation on all of our parts as well as his. So I find the common ground in those three basic thoughts interesting, and I find speculation on the tactics and semantics used to come to those common beliefs equally interesting. Stimulating even. I find it more rewarding than trading barbs.

[NuclearShadows]

I didn't watch the video, I read the book.. Maybe you should too... Maybe I will find the time to watch the video at some point. The book talks about god and socialism...

[freewolf46]

I didn't watch the video, I read the book.. Maybe you should too... Maybe I will find the time to watch the video at some point. The book talks about god and socialism...

My opinion of the video and responses are in post 12. I find no rebuttal to these observations in the fact that the guy believes in God, or anything else for that matter, which may disturb you.

I find three basic commonalities with the video.

One - That the price of oil and subsequently the cost to consumers is regulated by people in power and with a great deal of profit to the manipulators and those who serve them willingly.

Two - That the war against Iraq and the future war against Iran is about failure to comply and not a weapons threat.

Three - The empire building is being funded off these profits.

I find much in recent history to support these ideas and I also find the theories presented in the video an interesting take on the why and how. That the guy believes in God or that in a separate presentation in book form he believes an attempt at nationalization of the industry element is present does nothing to dissuade me on those three points. In fact there is much evidence that at one point nationalization was gaining a great deal of popularity and still does to this day. Especially in light of the many other movements around the world to do so.

That being said, the theme is not present in the video and separate of the reasons for my concern. That being continuing war to control others in the world at the expense of American lives and dollars at the pump and all related areas, as well as the continuing propping up of a failing American dollar which we are trading for a slice of America itself, furthering the foundational needs and goals of the empire.

Thanks for your observations, but with all due respect, I find them narrowed by some pre-existing disposition. That's my take. Any more would just be repetitive.

[Robbo]

My question is if there is as much oil and natural gas reserves as this guy claims then why do we continue to prop up governments in the Middle East with our continuous purchasing of their oil? You can't tell me that environmental groups hold that much sway over past and current elected officials.

[NuclearShadows]

My question is if there is as much oil and natural gas reserves as this guy claims then why do we continue to prop up governments in the Middle East with our continuous purchasing of their oil? You can't tell me that environmental groups hold that much sway over past and current elected officials.

Good question. I would like to hear freewolfs answer to that.

Three quarters of the world’s oil is controlled by governments. Dick Cheney’s little 2001 club, the National Energy Policy Development Group (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Cheney_Energy_Task_Force), was private get-togethers of energy executives, lobbyists and governmental folk. They formed this group before 911 and started crafting ways to get to Iraq’s oil, take it out of Saddams hands and get Chevron and the boys access to it. We want Iraq to privatize their oil. PNAC (http://www.newamericancentury.org/) said the same before 911 and when we attacked Iraq in 2003 much of the world believed it was all about the privatization of their oil (http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0331-08.htm), a belief that has regained prominence in peoples minds.

All of this is so complicated it boggles the mind. The power and history of OPEC cannot be ignored. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis) All the countries and issues in the middle east have oil flowing throughout their veins with Israel being the heart of the beast…

Should our government take control of the oil industry for national security reasons? It could do it by just saying it was for the defense of the country. Bush could just sign one of his infamous signing statements, act while congress was not in session and get the supreme court to back him up.

Would it lead to socialism and big brother? If we took the regulatory and environmental restraints off the oil industry and got all that cheap oil, would the trade off of environmental destruction and big oil profits be worth it?? Hmmm….

[Bruce McAuley]

Lindsey Williams is saying there's MORE, but they won't tell anybody.
It really makes no difference if all the oil is sold for private profit anyway.
George's job is to give Big Oil more resources in their private control.
He's done a great job, they will pay him off well after he retires(if he ever does retire).
Makes no practical difference if LW is right or not.:eek:

Bruce

[Drivesme]

My question is if there is as much oil and natural gas reserves as this guy claims then why do we continue to prop up governments in the Middle East with our continuous purchasing of their oil? You can't tell me that environmental groups hold that much sway over past and current elected officials.
Im guessing it has something to do with the empire building thing.

[lenny]

Freewolf, it seems that the book NS was referring to and this video were quite different in regards to their overall content. I think it's fair, especially for the sake of this thread, to take a look at what he's saying in the video you posted and not worry so much about his other views regarding religion, socialism, etc. Better to focus on the things we can come to agree on in some way, and as you've pointed out, a lot of the claims he's made echo some of the sentiments expressed by members of this forum, including myself. That alone should make it a threadworthy topic.

I can agree for the most part with these three points:

One - That the price of oil and subsequently the cost to consumers is regulated by people in power and with a great deal of profit to the manipulators and those who serve them willingly.

Two - That the war against Iraq and the future war against Iran is about failure to comply and not a weapons threat.

Three - The empire building is being funded off these profits.

I have some troubles with the first one because I feel that there really are supply/demand issues, and more importantly they are forecasted a few years out. For example, Cantarell is the largest oil field in Mexico and I believe the second largest ever discovered, and is in terminal decline. There were several reports that Mexico might have to cease exports in five or so years simply to meet their own demand.

I suppose my point is that I can see the price being manipulated to some degree at this time, but I believe it (the price of oil) didn't reflect its actual value in the past and is catching up. It would seem that the huge profits and subsequent golden parachutes for oil executives would show some incentive for the high prices we've seen, but I also believe the high prices are probably also just a reflection of the market and the times we are in. Since everything is done in futures, speculation seems to have an effect on price at the pump which is why you see spikes when things like the Bhutto assassination happen.

With regards to the video, I take issue with the statement "Peak Oil is a myth", and certainly his assertion that there is enough energy reserves on the North Slope to keep Suburbia running for another 200 years.

Oil is a finite resource, therefore, the statement "Peak Oil is a myth" is logically false. If there were an inexhaustible amount of crude oil then that statement would be true, but that oil is finite is simply an established fact. I'm left to assume that what he is trying to say is that he believes there is a massive amount of untapped supply left in the U.S. and the world; a supply so large it would dwarf what we knew of as being all the proven reserves of the past. Gawaher (also in steep terminal decline) in Saudi Arabia is the largest oilfield ever, and if what he's saying is true about the North Slope, it would make Saudi Arabia look like child's play.

200 years of energy reserves is quite the profound statement, and one that I have no choice but to reject as being way too fanciful. Even if he were considering huge improvements in energy efficiency technology and the ability for them to be affordable and quickly implemented I'd still find it fanciful. There's no way that the U.S. can exchange it's entire fleet of vehicles for more energy efficient models in any reasonable amount of time. Also, given projected population growth, all positive gains made in increasing the number of fuel efficient vehicles will be offset to some degree by an increased amount of people driving. I get the impression that this guy wouldn't even consider any of this stuff, and that he believes the untapped energy supply would just cover it all for several generations.

Another thing to consider is why we are not building lots of brand new state-of-the-art refineries to be able to convert all this untapped oil into gasoline. If the current infrastructure is becoming more and more decrepit and potentially unreliable (it is), and it takes several years to built and get even one new refinery online (it does), then it would seem to me that would show a gross misjudgment and unnecessary risk of future profits by the oil companies. The idea that they would risk any future profit if it weren't necessary doesn't add up for me.

I firmly believe that we need to move beyond the oil age...as a planet. As I've said above, the idea that we could continue our current way of life for another 200 years would be a huge tragedy. Auto-culture has in many ways made people's lives so much shittier, and I sincerely hope we can move away from it entirely. I see Lindsey William's hope and desire for there to be all this extra oil as misplaced nostalgia for a way of life that is on its way out, and an unfortunate false-hope because it prevents people from becoming mentally, as well as physically and materially prepared to live in a different kind of world.